I think that there are two schools of thought on treating Koi in case of parasite infection.
1. Catch Koi, scrape and identify parasite. Then treat with appropriate medication.
2. Koi with behaviour that suggests a parasite infection. Treat pond for the common type of parasite infection. So you PP pond, wait appropriate number of days, Fluke M pond, wait appropriate number of days, Malachite and Formalin added to pond. In this way you do not stress Koi by catching them. You have treated for the major problems that occur in a Koi pond.
I didn’t say that I used method 2. I just said that there were two schools of thought. Chemical treatments are very harsh they also detioriorate water quality etc. I just wanted to start a debate with some facts about why people choose method 1 over method 2. Or why some people choose method 2. I have heard that some people treat their pond with chemicals on a yearly basis as a matter of prevention. I am not advocating either approach.
I have always liked to challenge the status quo to see if I can establish new norms. It would appear that nobody wants to contribute to this topic.
I sought information from a manufacturer and distributor of the products that are usually used to treat Koi for parasites.
You might think that because they want to sell product that they would be in favour of some form of preventative treatments. Well that is not so. They believe in:
1. Keeping your water parameters in order and maintaining good water quality
2. Not overstocking
3. Not overfeeding
4. Do not use chemical treatments without taking a scrape and understanding the problem you are treating for
5. Parasites can build a resistance if you do not use the chemical product properly
6. Some chemical treatments are very harsh, they degrade water quality killing good and bad bacteria
7. Some chemicals contain carcinogens that have the ability to cause cancer in Koi
8. Only use chemical treatment when absolutely necessary
9. Use the correct chemical treatments to deal with the parasite identified
So Method 1 is strongly recommended by manufacturers of the chemical treatments.
All very interesting to me. So the status quo it is, unless anybody does want to contribute.
I would be very interested to know:
1. How many people feel confident to take a scrape from a Koi competently
2. How many people feel confident to identify the parasites through a microscope
3. How many people feel confident that they know exactly how to use the chemical treatments
4. Should there be a service offered to undertake scrapes, identify parasites through microscopic identification and to clearly recommend the treatment needed.
before I knew much about koi I had no idea about the necessities to keep them healthy. I like many started with the hole in the ground and a pump fed pressure filter. I never even knew abut check water parameters. it took a harsh lesson to wake me up and start researching.
I had never used any treatments in my first pond, not even dechlorinator and used to clean the filters with the hose every so many months when the flow reduced.
Now that I know what I know I will observe the koi. If I see behaviour which is associated with parasites I will first check the water. if I find anything untoward with that I will do the necessary with water changes, reducing/stop feeding etc.
If things don't settle down I will scrape. I think I've got that down to a tee and can get it done quickly with enough on a sample to examine. I will thoroughly check the sample on the low and then high objective lenses.
If I find anything I will treat with the appropriate treatment for as short a duration as I can.
The over use of treatments and randomly throwing them in without a diagnosis I think is very risky and is contributing to increased resistance. Unfortunately there are a lot of novice keepers out there who will listen to other not so wise keepers and some "dealers" who say put this or that in your pond in order to make a quick buck.
Hi Mike, you have brought up a good topic & as i have stopped keeping koi i wasnt going to post, but in my early days of koi keeping the using of chemicals without any microscopy or taking a biopsy for the vet to determine what kind of bacteria was affecting your koi before injecting antibiotics that may not work was as far as i knew back then was called shotgunning. ie no microscope to determine the parasites & no koi friendly vet to do a biopsy & prescribe the right antibiotics & very little information available as there is now with the internet. we were very reliant on your koi club & koi dealers to spread help & information as there was no where else to go, fortunately now most if not all koi keepers have all these at their call & help at hand.
Good topic Mike & hope you and Lynn are keeping well
if you forget your history, you will repeat your mistakes, RoyH
Cloverleaf Anti parasite claims to treat all parasites no temperature limits no uv or bacterial issues with filter....... even kills all types of flukes....... and they state it should be used in spring Ang autum to lower parasite count....... love this idea.
That’s really interesting. I will look and see what ingredients and probably write to cloverleaf to see their thoughts on scrape and identification. Have you used the product? Has anybody used the product?
One of our members had used it and it killed his filters and his fish not been right since.
If something claims to be a fix all I’d be dubious straight away as flukes and other parasites take 2 different lines of attack.
It is very effective against flukes, worms and fish lice. Unlike most other treatments it is NOT harsh and the fish do not generally have any issues with it. There is always the issue that re-infestation can take place and this is beyond our control. Generally speaking if you know your fish - which I am sure you do!! Scratching and jumping and general actions of the fish will allow you make a considered view with regard to treatments. Nothing beats a scrape for guaranteed knowledge of any parasite condition however. Not everyone can afford a microscope or know how to use one!! it does not contain malachite or formalin which are considered harsh treatments for ornamental fish.
i have gone back and asked a couple of other questions.
Cloverleaf Absolute Parasite+ is a new formula that kills and helps to prevent 99% of known parasites it can also be used in the spring and autumn to help prevent seasonal parasite outbreaks, Absolute parasite+ is unaffected by water temperature.
Absolute Parasite+ is applied as a two-dose treatment to take advantage of the parasites own lifecycle Absolute Parasite+ has been scientifically formulated by blending 4 outstanding active key ingredients that are best-known for their parasitic eradicating capabilities with a stabiliser to improve effectiveness making Absolute Parasite+ possibly the most effective Parasite treatment on the market today.
Absolute Parasite+ is effective against Microscopic Parasites such as: White Spot (Ichthyophthrius),Skin Flukes (Gyrodactylus), Gill Flukes (Dactylogyrus), Internal Worms (Nematodes), Costia (Ichyhyobodo necator), Chilodonella (Chilodonella uncinata), Tricodina and Hexamita. And larger Parasites such as: Anchor worm (Lernea) and Fish Lice (Argulus).
Absolute Parasite+ can be used to treat fish in ponds that contain high levels of salt unlike a lot of other parasite treatments available today.
Been looking briefly at the active ingredients for this treatment.
Flubendazole is an anthelmintic. Used by veterinarians for protection against internal parasites and worms in livestock, dogs and cats. Other brand names are Flubenol, Biovermin, and Flumoxal. This has been used commonly for treating flukes.
Levamisole, sold under the trade name Ergamisol among others, is a medication used to treat parasitic worm infections. Specifically it is used for ascariasis and hookworm infections. It belongs to the antihelmintic class of medications.Levamisole was originally used as an anthelmintic to treat worm infestations in both humans and animals. Levamisole works as a nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonist that causes continued stimulation of the parasitic worm muscles, leading to paralysis. In countries that still permit the use of levamisole, the recommended dose for anthelmintic therapy is a single dose, with a repeated dose 7 days later if needed for a severe hookworm infection. Most current commercial preparations are intended for veterinary use as a dewormer in cattle, pigs, and sheep. However, levamisole has also recently gained prominence among aquarists as an effective treatment for Camallanus roundworm infestations in freshwater tropical fish.
Cyromazine is a triazine insect growth regulator used as an insecticide and an acaricide. It is a cyclopropyl derivative of melamine. Cyromazine works by affecting the nervous system of the immature larval stages of certain insects. In veterinary medicine, cyromazine is used as an ectoparasiticide.
An ectoparasiticide is an antiparasitic drug used in the treatment of ectoparasitic infestations. These drugs are used to kill the parasites that live on the body.
Diflubenzuron is a urea-derived insecticide that is approved for use in the EU. It has a low aqueous solubility and is volatile. Based on its chemical properties, it is not expected to leach to groundwater. It is not persistent in soils but can be in water in some circumstances. It has a low mammalian toxicity. It is moderately toxic to fish, honeybees and earthworms but more toxic to aquatic invertebrates. Diflubenzuron is relatively non-toxic to birds and algae
"Cloverleaf Anti parasite claims to treat all parasites no temperature limits no uv or bacterial issues with filter....... even kills all types of flukes....... and they state it should be used in spring Ang autum to lower parasite count....... love this idea. "
Using treatments all the time just leads to resistance. I won't stock this even though there is plenty of demand.
I know people that have used it for one parasite and got another parasite so it doesn't kill all.
Identify the parasite and treat with an appropriate treatment is all that is needed.
Would you take aspirin, paracetemol, AND morphine, just in case you might have a mild head ache?
Your advertising states that the products eradicates 99% of the parasites including trichodenia, chilodenia etc. Your response does not confirm this.
Can you tell me more specifically what parasites are eradicated?
What clinical trials have you conducted to confirm the effectiveness of the product?
What tests have you undertaken with Koi?
Have you seen any results from general Koi keepers like myself?
Have you had any problems with the product?
And their response:
I believe that you may have seen an old packaged item. We were advised some time ago that proving the claim of 99% success was not practical and as a result all product with this packaging was recalled. Can you please let me know where you saw this pack so that we may recall it?
I advised that the information was on their website.
Their website has now been changed and the product is no longer advertised on their website. Very interesting.
A topic on Koi health morphed into reviewing a cloverleaf product.
Its no wonder that I get confused on the best approach and the best products to use. Still interested in other opinions.
If I see anything unusual with my Koi such as flashing, sulking etc for me the first thing is always to check water parameters first. If these are all ok then I scrape the Koi to try find if it’s parasites that’s causing the problem, I then treat with the appropriate treatment using Duncan griffiths book for guidance. I think it’s a book that every hobbyist should have access to, I also feel that every hobbyist should learn to take scrapes and use a microscope in case needed for the benefit of the Koi
Here is the latest from Cloverleaf on their product.
The product has been removed from our website in order for changes to be made as per my previous emails. The product is still a major part of our new range of medications and will undoubtedly be regarded as a "must have" by fish keepers for many years to come.
However, Until we are satisfied that there can be no misunderstandings regarding our claimed benefits we feel it is best not to publicise it. I will answer your questions fully in due course when our legal advisers permit. We, together with many major wholesalers, continue to use the product as we have done for many years.
Please rest assured that this blip will be resolved shortly and you will be able to get supplies of Absolute Pro Answer with its adjusted packaging in the not too distant future.